I’ll be honest this was one of the chapters that I wanted to discuss with my small group when the podcast came out - with a significant amount of Puckish provocation as my motivation. But there’s certainly more value than winding up my very Protestant friends (they deserve better if nothing else).
This strangeness and discomforting metaphor for our modern eyes brings to the fore how we don’t really have a very healthy attitude to sex and relationships. I had a good conversation with one of my daughters about the various categorisations of relationships recently - I can’t remember what the exact definition of one of them was but it was something along the lines of non-sexual non-romantic. But’s you’ve just described a close friendship was my response as it describes how I feel about many of my closest friends.
I found myself coming back to the Incarnation - this metaphor explores the love of Christ in a way that we can understand in a human framing (albeit with some sensible limits). I think most of us have experienced the secret powerful yearning of an unresolved crush (or I identified a little too closely to Cyrano de Bergerac as a teen!) But crucially in that story, Cyrano speaks of his satisfaction with a close friendship with the love of his life (seriously watch the Gerard Depardieu movie - the ending gets me as close to tears as any). This view of Jesus can convey so powerful His love for us - it’s a description of an experience so visceral that it’s very hard to keep it as a head conversation.
I see some value in this view of Jesus as a conversation starter and a way to be counter cultural - I miss the long after work discussions with my atheist work colleagues that would have been perfect for this. There is always a danger in this of misunderstandings due to different understandings of words - it’s often amusing to me in my day job (Marketing Developer) that I often have to spend a lot of time thinking and being careful about the meaning of words - within the same company different people can have VERY different understandings of the same words - greying what little remains of my hair!
When I was thinking about the juxtaposition of Jesus as Lover and Judge I was reminded of a slight prejudice I have with humanity in general - most communities only seem to be able to hold onto one big idea at a time. And that manifests itself most clearly in whatever the morality question of the day it. When I was at Uni it was credit cards. Cutting up your credit card was the fastest route to peace and happiness. Today sexuality seems to impose on every conversation. Seeing Jesus as Lover and as Judge pushes against that mental limitation because we have to start holding seemingly contradictory ideas together - like holding the same poles of two magnets together. We don’t think of judges as playful or lovers upholding unpopular laws. Working to see Jesus as the Judge Lover and the Lover Judge forces us to consider His full character, not just the aspect we might want to at that time.
Tim, yes! Your last paragraph... I couldn't agree more. Holding on to more than one idea is so difficult for us, and such a life-giving exercise of faith. Also, your words "it’s a description of an experience so visceral that it’s very hard to keep it as a head conversation"... I think that perfectly describes how medieval writers like Mechthild or Bernard would feel in their attempts to use this kind of language to describe divine love.
I find the idea of Jesus as lover at once attractive and also foreign. It's so interesting to learn more about how medieval Christians thought of this concept. I feel that sometimes my impression of medieval people is that they were at once far less sensitive about using yonic and phallic imagery to denote more profound things, but also very prohibitive around sex? I found the imagery of the wound at Jesus's side being represented as a vulva fascinating. It makes a lot of sense! But then doesn't square with what I have read about attitudes towards women and femininity...
I found the idea of Jesus as lover balancing out Jesus as judge comforting. That intimate tenderness that is the closeness and joy on offer while having a right understanding of Jesus as the one who judges.
I find that combo very helpful and comforting too--it makes sense that they are both end times images.
Yes, this combination of both being prohibitive around sex or misogynistic about women but using sexual & gendered metaphor or allegory so much more generously than ourselves in figurative and especially spiritual language is so often confusing for us as we read! We want to divide them firmly into a camp ("proto-feminist or anti-women," "progressive or conservative", etc..) but it just doesn't map neatly at all!
I think today, we are so often scared of or threatened by metaphor and allegory. Especially Protestants (and I say this lovingly, as someone in the Protestant tradition) but everyone else too, in modernity we have trouble holding things as a metaphor without immediately trying to read it as literal. We've excluded other potential ways of reading than literal! I've learned a lot about how much figurative language or imagery can speak to deeper shades of meaning in our faith from medieval writers and artists.
It is so enriching, but also difficult to not be uncomfortable I think... I think our culture (Western in general, but I am in Australia so it might be a bit different here) doesn't do a lot of allegory and so it can come off as creepy to use sexual imagery to denote intimacy. It's a tricky one to get past!
Absolutely agree--it is uncomfortable, and it's an image of Jesus that I have never been drawn to independently! It's a vision of Jesus that I think takes a lot of time to think about and ease into...
I found this section so interesting and challenging especially after fairly recently coming to a recognition of growing up in the 90s in purity culture in the church (the culture in youth group, books - so many books and from my family). I loved this part, "The numb soul, worn down by sin and the cares and mundainity of embodied life may be caressed into warmth." This part resonated deeply with me.
Also, "Sometimes the idea of Jesus as a lover gets oriented around gender and sexual experience - women in the place of the bride, men in the place of Christ the bridegroom. In contrast, medieval folks did not exclusively understand Jesus the Lover as a church-only or women-only metaphor." I think this is really important and I really appreciate how you clarified this in your writing. Thank you for a nuanced view and pointing out the difficulty of looking at it in a way that may be traumatic for those who have experienced abuse and trauma. (Quotes from page 49.)
I’ll be honest this was one of the chapters that I wanted to discuss with my small group when the podcast came out - with a significant amount of Puckish provocation as my motivation. But there’s certainly more value than winding up my very Protestant friends (they deserve better if nothing else).
This strangeness and discomforting metaphor for our modern eyes brings to the fore how we don’t really have a very healthy attitude to sex and relationships. I had a good conversation with one of my daughters about the various categorisations of relationships recently - I can’t remember what the exact definition of one of them was but it was something along the lines of non-sexual non-romantic. But’s you’ve just described a close friendship was my response as it describes how I feel about many of my closest friends.
I found myself coming back to the Incarnation - this metaphor explores the love of Christ in a way that we can understand in a human framing (albeit with some sensible limits). I think most of us have experienced the secret powerful yearning of an unresolved crush (or I identified a little too closely to Cyrano de Bergerac as a teen!) But crucially in that story, Cyrano speaks of his satisfaction with a close friendship with the love of his life (seriously watch the Gerard Depardieu movie - the ending gets me as close to tears as any). This view of Jesus can convey so powerful His love for us - it’s a description of an experience so visceral that it’s very hard to keep it as a head conversation.
I see some value in this view of Jesus as a conversation starter and a way to be counter cultural - I miss the long after work discussions with my atheist work colleagues that would have been perfect for this. There is always a danger in this of misunderstandings due to different understandings of words - it’s often amusing to me in my day job (Marketing Developer) that I often have to spend a lot of time thinking and being careful about the meaning of words - within the same company different people can have VERY different understandings of the same words - greying what little remains of my hair!
When I was thinking about the juxtaposition of Jesus as Lover and Judge I was reminded of a slight prejudice I have with humanity in general - most communities only seem to be able to hold onto one big idea at a time. And that manifests itself most clearly in whatever the morality question of the day it. When I was at Uni it was credit cards. Cutting up your credit card was the fastest route to peace and happiness. Today sexuality seems to impose on every conversation. Seeing Jesus as Lover and as Judge pushes against that mental limitation because we have to start holding seemingly contradictory ideas together - like holding the same poles of two magnets together. We don’t think of judges as playful or lovers upholding unpopular laws. Working to see Jesus as the Judge Lover and the Lover Judge forces us to consider His full character, not just the aspect we might want to at that time.
Tim, yes! Your last paragraph... I couldn't agree more. Holding on to more than one idea is so difficult for us, and such a life-giving exercise of faith. Also, your words "it’s a description of an experience so visceral that it’s very hard to keep it as a head conversation"... I think that perfectly describes how medieval writers like Mechthild or Bernard would feel in their attempts to use this kind of language to describe divine love.
I find the idea of Jesus as lover at once attractive and also foreign. It's so interesting to learn more about how medieval Christians thought of this concept. I feel that sometimes my impression of medieval people is that they were at once far less sensitive about using yonic and phallic imagery to denote more profound things, but also very prohibitive around sex? I found the imagery of the wound at Jesus's side being represented as a vulva fascinating. It makes a lot of sense! But then doesn't square with what I have read about attitudes towards women and femininity...
I found the idea of Jesus as lover balancing out Jesus as judge comforting. That intimate tenderness that is the closeness and joy on offer while having a right understanding of Jesus as the one who judges.
I find that combo very helpful and comforting too--it makes sense that they are both end times images.
Yes, this combination of both being prohibitive around sex or misogynistic about women but using sexual & gendered metaphor or allegory so much more generously than ourselves in figurative and especially spiritual language is so often confusing for us as we read! We want to divide them firmly into a camp ("proto-feminist or anti-women," "progressive or conservative", etc..) but it just doesn't map neatly at all!
I think today, we are so often scared of or threatened by metaphor and allegory. Especially Protestants (and I say this lovingly, as someone in the Protestant tradition) but everyone else too, in modernity we have trouble holding things as a metaphor without immediately trying to read it as literal. We've excluded other potential ways of reading than literal! I've learned a lot about how much figurative language or imagery can speak to deeper shades of meaning in our faith from medieval writers and artists.
It is so enriching, but also difficult to not be uncomfortable I think... I think our culture (Western in general, but I am in Australia so it might be a bit different here) doesn't do a lot of allegory and so it can come off as creepy to use sexual imagery to denote intimacy. It's a tricky one to get past!
Absolutely agree--it is uncomfortable, and it's an image of Jesus that I have never been drawn to independently! It's a vision of Jesus that I think takes a lot of time to think about and ease into...
I found this section so interesting and challenging especially after fairly recently coming to a recognition of growing up in the 90s in purity culture in the church (the culture in youth group, books - so many books and from my family). I loved this part, "The numb soul, worn down by sin and the cares and mundainity of embodied life may be caressed into warmth." This part resonated deeply with me.
Also, "Sometimes the idea of Jesus as a lover gets oriented around gender and sexual experience - women in the place of the bride, men in the place of Christ the bridegroom. In contrast, medieval folks did not exclusively understand Jesus the Lover as a church-only or women-only metaphor." I think this is really important and I really appreciate how you clarified this in your writing. Thank you for a nuanced view and pointing out the difficulty of looking at it in a way that may be traumatic for those who have experienced abuse and trauma. (Quotes from page 49.)